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Don't you ever wonder what's so fascinating about reading/viewing homosexual love stories?

Well most of my research has been around yaoi so I'm not too sure on what the western theories are, and I haven't read much about pornography (except that it's a trangressive medium) to know why the sexually explicit scenes are so appealing.

Whilst reading on the history of yaoi I came across the reason of why it started out as a shojo genre.
For many years mangaka have been creating heterosexual love stories but in the advent of feminism in the 1970s a lot of the mangaka were thinking about the equality of the role of the woman in these love stories.
As usual the male and the female character would fall in love and the stories would revolve around that love, but eventually they would make love to each other and the end result would be the woman becoming pregnant and therefore creating an imbalance in the equality of the relationship. The woman would have to bear the child, take care of it... etc.

Thus the mangaka started using men to portray the female character, rather feminine looking men too... this way when the characters make love there would be no threat of pregnancy. The feminine character would always be the one penetrated and hence this is why there is the seme and uke rule.
Women immediately identified with the submissive male character or the uke of course nowadays women do not always take the submissive role and thus there are reversal seme/uke relationships... but that comes later.

And so, why is there a fair amount of sex portrayed in yaoi stories. Well now that there is no threat to pregnancy, the idea of the lovers having sex is welcomed and the readers want to see it I suppose.
I realise that the sex was non-consentual and it was not always lovers that engaged in it... but as always there are exceptions, it all depends on the story.

So... anyone got any theories?

Hmmm... I have read more shounen ai than full on yaoi, and from that I would guess that part of it is the romanticism. You see romantic men in conventional male/female stories, but I think it appeals to some women to see men being intimate with each other. In western society anything like that is pretty frowned upon - girls will hug each other hello but most guys would only ever do that in a joking manner, if at all.

Perhaps it's a kind of fascination with seeing men act in such a manner that isn't commonly portrayed. And from what little I've seen, the men are never portrayed in a stereotypically "gay" way, which is refreshing.

From talking to some girls in the past I have kinda gathered that it has to do with the dominant and submissive rolls that are held in sex between two people.  I cant really cant elaborate as I dont understand it.  It takes one to know one I guess... :sweatdrop

on that note if I had to guess that if it had any parallel to yuri maybe its 'unattainable/untouchable' factor which makes it appealing.  I think... eeee Yuri aint my bag either  ::

Thing is, most people don't even classify things like shoujo, shonen, yaoi or yuri. They categorise manga according to the main theme - cooking, sports-related, medieval romantic, new romantic etc....it's just that some subjects are more "girly" or "manly".

It's also a way of seeing rape scenes without feeling passive pain of sorts...you know how when guys see a movie where someone gets it bad in the nuts, and all the guys go "ooooohhhhh...that'd hurt" and their hands go instinctively to the groin area, while girls go..."what?...what?"

hahahaha that is the coolest analogy Ive ever seen :rollin

It is?  

Not to oversimplify, but I think Paul Reiser said it best in Mad About You:

Paul: "A wedding ring is a magnet for single women!"
Jamie: "Oh please!"
Paul: "No, really, it's like, they want it just 'cause they can't have it.  Sorta like lesbians for men."
Jamie: "What DO men find so attractive about two women together?"
Paul: "Well, I can agree with both of them."

Nezuji :b

Sorry to contradict you, but male-to-male pornography of any form is not targeted for women, and the same goes to male centerfolds too.

It's the characterization in yaoi, and sometimes the romance factor that really matters, not just "two guys getting it on".
Women are unlikely to find any pornography interesting if it doesn't have the romantic mood.
Women are not aroused by the male genital organs anyway - most find it "nauseating" to see one in real life for the first time.

And the wedding ring attraction is the greatest myth men has ever made...when a woman sees a wedding ring, she sees what the ring signifies: the man is economically balanced, and has enough good traits that a woman pledged her life to him.
That is, the woman is already confident that she can win this man over. And if they can't seem to have it, why are there so many cheating husbands in this world? :sarcastic

if women wanted to look at pornography I think they'd go for the heterosexual kind...
although I don't know this for sure, but I really doubt women buy gay pornographic magazines and find it arousing. It's all with the fantasy element, which is what makes slash fiction and yaoi so popular.

Exactly EE, like I said!

if women wanted to look at pornography I think they'd go for the heterosexual kind...
although I don't know this for sure, but I really doubt women buy gay pornographic magazines and find it arousing. It's all with the fantasy element, which is what makes slash fiction and yaoi so popular.

Not wholly true

I know some girls...

I'm confused, Tama.

You're saing that the reason that you believe that this pornography is made isn't the same as the reason that you believe that women read it?

Pornography is made.  People read it.  Who cares why?  Unless you're marketing the stuff

Many tests have indicated that men are more visually stimulated than women.  Hence the focus on pictures and video.  That said, I don't find anything stimulating about watching two random strangers who obviously have nothing more than a very slight physical attraction to each other going at it like knives.  Likewise I am baffled and disappointed by constant and prolonged closeups of genitalia.  I must be a woman

And I think that while a flaccid penis is one of the less attractive things to look at, a... erm... NON-flaccid one has a certain charm :naughty

Going back over the other posts, I see that people were discussing homosexual "intimacy", but not necessarily physical intimacy.  The idea that EE seemed to be pushing was that a romantic love could be taken to its logical conclusion, i.e. consumation, without the relationship then changing to a less exciting family scenario, with the woman (presumably) in a submissive role.  Not that the consumation itself was the interesting part of the story.

Finally, about women being attracted to married men, well I really don't care either way about that, I just included it because it's how Paul and Jamie got onto the topic of men and lesbians.  I'm 100% sure that if and when I marry, she'll be a girl I couldn't tear myself away from even if I wanted to.

Funny though what you said about what a woman sees when she sees a wedding ring.  When I see a wedding ring, I just see that she's "taken", and cross her off as a potential partner.  Over-simplified male reasoning...

Nezuji

PS:

if women wanted to look at pornography I think they'd go for the heterosexual kind...

"They"?  You are a woman, right?  I mean, no matter what ACK says, you are, technically and philosophically, still of the female gender, right? :b

You're saing that the reason that you believe that this pornography is made isn't the same as the reason that you believe that women read it?
Pornography is made.  People read it.  Who cares why?  Unless you're marketing the stuff


Of course not. Like I said, no successful sub-genre of pornography has ever been made to target a female audience.
It's the same reason why Mills & Boon never writes in the POV of the hero: Men aren't the target audience of Mills & Boon.
And by the way, just in case you're interested, it's because someone cares why people read a certain sub-genre of pornography that this thread was created.




Many tests have indicated that men are more visually stimulated than women.  Hence the focus on pictures and video.  That said, I don't find anything stimulating about watching two random strangers who obviously have nothing more than a very slight physical attraction to each other going at it like knives.  Likewise I am baffled and disappointed by constant and prolonged closeups of genitalia.  I must be a woman

And I think that while a flaccid penis is one of the less attractive things to look at, a... erm... NON-flaccid one has a certain charm :naughty



Women find them ugly, flaccid or not.
If you listen to firsthand accounts of sexual assult, date rape or even mutual sex, the woman's first response is that the man's erection was so big and ugly, that they wanted to throw up, which is what nauseating means to you, I hope.
It has nothing to do with "baffled" or "disappointed", which are words associated with badly made tapes without any scenario whatsoever, regardless of its genre.


Going back over the other posts, I see that people were discussing homosexual "intimacy", but not necessarily physical intimacy.  The idea that EE seemed to be pushing was that a romantic love could be taken to its logical conclusion, i.e. consumation, without the relationship then changing to a less exciting family scenario, with the woman (presumably) in a submissive role.  Not that the consumation itself was the interesting part of the story.


And Gravitation is a classic example. Despite its notorious reputation, it actually only has little hints to sex scenes most of the time, and you don't think "gee they're homosexuals" while you're reading it, you're taking Shuichi's side in his quest for making Eiri admit that he's the one.
It's the  love that will never work. That's the classic formula for yaoi.


Funny though what you said about what a woman sees when she sees a wedding ring.  When I see a wedding ring, I just see that she's "taken", and cross her off as a potential partner.  Over-simplified male reasoning...


Men are less likely to commit to a relationship than a woman. Plus, women check the marriage status last, while that's what men thinks about first in "evaluating" the potential. Hell, even 10-year-olds know it. This was what happened to me at a beach one day:

boy: Hello, what are you doing?
me: picking up seashells. They're pretty.
boy: Are you married?
me: (what?) No.
*boy somehow appears from another direction dragging his father along with him*


PS:

"They"?  You are a woman, right?  I mean, no matter what ACK says, you are, technically and philosophically, still of the female gender, right? :b


Again, mostwomen do not want to watch pornography, mainly because they find it disgusting.
If EE was part of a yaoi-watching demographic, she wouldn't even need to start this thread.
And plus, I thought ACK was technically bisexual rather than heterosexual. :p

Of course not. Like I said, no successful sub-genre of pornography has ever been made to target a female audience.
It's the same reason why Mills & Boon never writes in the POV of the hero: Men aren't the target audience of Mills & Boon.

Merely because they do not cotain images of naked people, I do not rule out raunchy novels as pornography.  I have read some books which I could only consider to be pornography, without having a single picture anywhere, even on the cover.  And damn good they were, too :b

Women find them ugly, flaccid or not.
If you listen to firsthand accounts of sexual assult, date rape or even mutual sex, the woman's first response is that the man's erection was so big and ugly, that they wanted to throw up, which is what nauseating means to you, I hope.
It has nothing to do with "baffled" or "disappointed", which are words associated with badly made tapes without any scenario whatsoever, regardless of its genre.

"Men hate the boring depravity of most so-called pornographic movies."  I don't trust your self-extrapolated generalisations about women just as you shouldn't (and clearly don't) trust my self-extrapolated generalisations about men.

Yes, sometimes I do feel sick, watching those things (which is why I have a fast forward button on my VCR).  But other times, I don't feel sick, just bored.  I can honestly say that I've never seen any genitalia, male or female, that I'd take a picture of and hang on my wall (social constructs aside).  But to feel revulsion to the point of nausea at the sight of any and all genitalia?  That sounds like a psychological problem.  And a rather serious impediment to a conventional relationship, straight or gay.

And while I haven't read much about sexual assault, I have read quite a few firsthand accounts of women's view of consentual sex - REAL women in REAL books dedicated to the REAL subject of sex and interpersonal relationshiops, not the Penthouse letters pages - where they don't rush to say that the man's genitalia revolted them.  Some find it amusing, and a few even say that they thought it was kind of cute.  Face it, if every woman was so put off by the appearance of men's genitalia, what would happen to the propagation of the species?  And I suppose you'll counter with some quip about a male-dominated society leaving women no choice in the matter...

And Gravitation is a classic example. Despite its notorious reputation, it actually only has little hints to sex scenes most of the time, and you don't think "gee they're homosexuals" while you're reading it, you're taking Shuichi's side in his quest for making Eiri admit that he's the one.  It's the  love that will never work. That's the classic formula for yaoi.

I have no idea what you're talking about, never heard of the book in question, but we don't seem to be in disagreement here so I won't wreck it :b

Men are less likely to commit to a relationship than a woman. Plus, women check the marriage status last, while that's what men thinks about first in "evaluating" the potential. Hell, even 10-year-olds know it. This was what happened to me at a beach one day:

boy: Hello, what are you doing?
me: picking up seashells. They're pretty.
boy: Are you married?
me: (what?) No.
*boy somehow appears from another direction dragging his father along with him*

So you're saying that from a woman's point of view, whether or not the guy is already married is the least important concern when selecting a partner?  And yet you clearly hold the view that men are worthless as they can be easily convinced to cheat on their wives.  Or is this why you say women consider the marrital status of the man last - because it's theoretically the most easily overcome obstacle?  It all sounds like the old (but exactly opposite) comment that if a man sleeps with a woman he is some sort of hero, but she becomes a $lut. (Triggered the web proxy text filter there...)

Again, most women do not want to watch pornography, mainly because they find it disgusting.
If EE was part of a yaoi-watching demographic, she wouldn't even need to start this thread.
And plus, I thought ACK was technically bisexual rather than heterosexual. :p

If I watch lots of movies, I know what everyone else thinks makes a good movie?  If this were the case there would be no test-screenings for blockbusters!  Anyway, I was just making a reference to the fact that ACK always calls EE, "Asexual but sexy"

Nezuji

Well.. it's very hard to say what men like and what women like, because we make generalisations.

As for pornography I find that it's very hard to say what is porn and what isn't? Because to me... Mills and Boon isn't pornography... it's somewhat erotic literature (but not really)
I consider pornography to be material that arouses me. If it's just two people going at it... and its pretty boring... then it's pretty boring.

when I talk about yaoi in the sense that it's the romantic factor that is so appealing, I suppose it's just like romance novels. we read because we want to follow the romance which ultimately leads to the consumation of love - the climax. So the consumation is important.. and we all know it's going to happen and I suppose that is part of the appeal...
I mean to say that women don't read yaoi just to see two men making love... there's a little more to it ^_^

EagleEye501 wrote:   
if women wanted to look at pornography I think they'd go for the heterosexual kind...   

"They"? You are a woman, right? I mean, no matter what ACK says, you are, technically and philosophically, still of the female gender, right?

LOL!! I guess I didn't realise that I wrote that... yes yes I'm a woman and I meant to write "we"...

Anyways I seem to come in and say a few odd things without thoroughly reading your posts...   'scuse me...

Merely because they do not cotain images of naked people, I do not rule out raunchy novels as pornography.  I have read some books which I could only consider to be pornography, without having a single picture anywhere, even on the cover.  And damn good they were, too :b

Again, Mills & Boon isn't even pornography. Mills & Boon is about a woman caught up in the midst of many changes and finding the man who will help her through all her problems which she encounters.
It is only in the recent ones where they included divorcees and mothers as the heroines of the novels. And that's supposed to be a breakthrough.
They have a different trademark for the "sexy novels" as they call it. And plus, all of them involve romance.
Obviously, you don't read Mills & Boon, otherwise you would NEVER make such a gross mistake. Which just comes to show, it was never targeted for the male audience.

"Men hate the boring depravity of most so-called pornographic movies."  I don't trust your self-extrapolated generalisations about women just as you shouldn't (and clearly don't) trust my self-extrapolated generalisations about men.
Yes, sometimes I do feel sick, watching those things (which is why I have a fast forward button on my VCR).  But other times, I don't feel sick, just bored.  I can honestly say that I've never seen any genitalia, male or female, that I'd take a picture of and hang on my wall (social constructs aside).  But to feel revulsion to the point of nausea at the sight of any and all genitalia?  That sounds like a psychological problem.  And a rather serious impediment to a conventional relationship, straight or gay.

The feeling of nausea slowly dulls as the woman gains more experience. The point I was making was that women are not aroused by the sight of genitalia, not whether they're worth posting on the wall.
And if the sight of female genitals was repulsive to men, why do all those hentai figures spread their legs in all positions?

And while I haven't read much about sexual assault, I have read quite a few firsthand accounts of women's view of consentual sex - REAL women in REAL books dedicated to the REAL subject of sex and interpersonal relationshiops, not the Penthouse letters pages - where they don't rush to say that the man's genitalia revolted them.  Some find it amusing, and a few even say that they thought it was kind of cute.  Face it, if every woman was so put off by the appearance of men's genitalia, what would happen to the propagation of the species?  And I suppose you'll counter with some quip about a male-dominated society leaving women no choice in the matter...

...yes, women say that in afterthought. They didn't write the books when they first saw it. Plus, their first sexual experience does not necessarily means they never saw a penis before.
And plus, with that kind of stuff sells the "real books." marketing, again, is a significant part of it; the books are as "real" as the "real people" section in Cosmopolitan Magazine, or New Idea, or CLEO, Woman's Day, Girlfriend, Dolly, B, Who, or even Woolworths Fresh.
 

I have no idea what you're talking about, never heard of the book in question, but we don't seem to be in disagreement here so I won't wreck it :b

Gravitation is like, THE yaoi. Your statement is a bit like "Yea I know about shonen manga, but no, I haven't read Slam Dunk."

So you're saying that from a woman's point of view, whether or not the guy is already married is the least important concern when selecting a partner?  And yet you clearly hold the view that men are worthless as they can be easily convinced to cheat on their wives.  Or is this why you say women consider the marrital status of the man last - because it's theoretically the most easily overcome obstacle?  It all sounds like the old (but exactly opposite) comment that if a man sleeps with a woman he is some sort of hero, but she becomes a $lut. (Triggered the web proxy text filter there...)

I never said that did I? And plus, if you see a man in a bar, or any social gathering alone, you automatically assume his partner doesn't exist.

If I watch lots of movies, I know what everyone else thinks makes a good movie?  If this were the case there would be no test-screenings for blockbusters!  Anyway, I was just making a reference to the fact that ACK always calls EE, "Asexual but sexy"

Nezuji

...if this wasn't the case, the test-screenings won't determine what makes a good movie. How will you qualify movie critics who never watched movies?